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Poster: kochman Date: Mar 5, 2014 3:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: We don't need no more trouble

Again, I don't think Reagan was the only factor.
Was the fall inevitable? Yes, I agree.
Was Reagan involved in the last years? Yes, no one denies that.
Do I believe his acts, speeches, etc. contributed to the acceleration of the collapse? Yes... this is the bone of contention.

I don't except the over-determined view of "it was going to happen" at some point as diminishing the contributions of those who finally made it happen.

It's like saying, well, the French Revolution was bound to happen, so Robespierre et al, they were just in the right place at the right time. I don't believe that...

There are a lot of historians that agree with both arguments, Tell... that's kind of a cop out. I tend to support more the ideas of the agency of man verse over-determined structures being the changing force in history.

EDIT: Regarding Stalingrad and the US giving aid to the CCCP:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease#US_deliveries_to_USSR
American deliveries to the Soviet Union can be divided into the following phases:

"pre Lend-lease" 22 June 1941 to 30 September 1941 (paid for in gold and other minerals)
first protocol period from 1 October 1941 to 30 June 1942 (signed 1 October 1941), these supplies were to be manufactured and delivered by the UK with US credit financing.
second protocol period from 1 July 1942 to 30 June 1943 (signed 6 October 1942)
third protocol period from 1 July 1943 to 30 June 1944 (signed 19 October 1943)
fourth protocol period from 1 July 1944, (signed 17 April 1945), formally ended 12 May 1945 but deliveries continued for the duration of the war with Japan (which the Soviet Union entered on the 8 August 1945) under the "Milepost" agreement until 2 September 1945 when Japan capitulated. On 20 September 1945 all Lend-Lease to the Soviet Union was terminated.

Stalingrad = 23 August 1942 – 2 February 1943

This post was modified by kochman on 2014-03-05 23:30:21

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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 5, 2014 4:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: We don't need no more trouble

Oh yeah, we're probably cool on that then--ie, I agree it's multivariate, and only get pissed when the folks say "Reagan WON it!"...just quibbling about that extreme view...those that overstate it.

And again, I know all the figs for our votes/aid/etc, but the fact remains, on the ground, the vehicles/planes/artillery/etc. that "won" the battle were not the stuff we sent them, they just didn't get there prior to summer of 42 (russkies).

Where we really made a difference--our stuff that is--is that they never could have made the "drive" to Berlin because we DID give them the boots (literally) and transport to do that...it would have taken another yr or two, minimum.

So again, a matter of degree; I say, "Nazis had lost momentum, and were headed downhill prior to US support materials arriving in huge amounts" while you see the all important aspect of "without our aid, the russkies would've had a much harder time of it, etc., etc."...I know YOU understand the complexity, but other folks that overstate it (WE won the war, russkies were secondary) are offbase.

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Poster: kochman Date: Mar 6, 2014 5:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: We don't need no more trouble

Oh absolutely both were multivariate!
I think when people say "Reagan won the CW", they don't (generally) mean single-handedly. He was just, as Gorbachev said so clearly, "instrumental". There could have been other instrumental people to do it perhaps, though not from the offerings of the D Party at the time. The D's hadn't shifted into today's neocon Ds yet.

The USSR provided the most manpower, in WW2, tying down 45 German "Armies", while on the Western Front we fought only 5!

But... I would stop short of saying the Russians would have defeated Germany without our aid (including the financial aid before our solid material aid got there).
Stalingrad wasn't the end for Germany, it was the beginning of the end of a world effort against them...

Futhermore, without the UK/US strategic bombing of Germany, plus the other (albeit relatively minor) fronts of Africa, Italy and then France, as well as the much smaller efforts of the raid on Norway, etc which tied down yet more German troops, air force and resources... I am not sure the Russians would have defeated Germany at all.

If you want to discuss this further, which I would be happy to do, perhaps we should take it somewhere else?

This post was modified by kochman on 2014-03-06 13:35:12

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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 6, 2014 6:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: We don't need no more trouble

Cool; yeah, we're fine--besides, we gotta do this HERE every five yrs to bore the beejeebers outta everyone.

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Mar 6, 2014 7:21am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: I'd kill to see just a little trouble around here

This place has provided an excellent alternative to Ambien.


Good God, what's happened to us? It's a sad state of affairs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz2PhYFK8Bw

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Poster: William Tell Date: Mar 6, 2014 11:06am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I'd kill to see just a little trouble around here

Yes, I fear we figuratively and LITERALLY "put Rob to sleep"...after surviving Dire, Thatcher, and Blair, he succumbs to our mind-numbing "secret weapon": The DEAD Forum (means what it sez, eh?...).

Putin? We don't need no stinking Putin for the obliteration of the Free World! We do it here, one tired brain cell at a time...

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Mar 6, 2014 11:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I'd kill to see just a little trouble around here

Well, this place is certainly Putin-me to sleep lately (insert rim-shot here).


With puns like that its no wonder our resident self-absorbed and self-appointed intellectual Scotsman is such a rare sight in these parts.

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Poster: kochman Date: Mar 6, 2014 8:20am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: We don't need no more trouble

Hahahaha, yes! Why not. It provides me a cathartic historical release... a form of mental masturbation.